Kennel Angelo del Guardiano

[Karina]

With your opinion of breeding Susen :: ), you just tell me that my Daffie should have been killed, when she was born  

In your breeding of CC, do you ever think of the mentality and health (HD etc)? Or did you only got on the looks?

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

I think with dogs you would not make same combination again.
Dogs have mostly more than one pup in the litter.
So also you can see if more pups have the problem.
You can check the pedigree to see if there were more problems in the lines and after you make a second combination and there are pups again with epi it would be usefull to stop breeding with the mother.. same with the father if he had given epi before too.
If you have a female wich littermate had epi and she gets a pup with epi too i would stop breeding her.

But with people it is different.
you get 1 child. so for sure most people would try again.
I think if i were the parents i will not try to get a 3th child if the 2th also gets epi.

But to come back on the kiling of the pups.....
The parents are giving it... the problems. will you exeute the parents too after they gave  a few pups with kinky tales etc etc
Or castrate?

If it is the parents there give it genetic to the pups,
lets call theme X liter.

And then you get a pup called X,Y from X liter there look god and have no erors.

You kill the brother to that puppy called X,O and the sister called X,P from X liter (because off ilnes or looks).
 
You sell puppy X,Y and when it become adult the new owner make puppys on X,Y.
What is there to prevent that X,Y gets puppys as X,O and X,P like the previus litter?

So what is the idea in killing X,O or X,P?

just dont get it.

 
 
then it would not help to kill that puppys brother or sister in the first place?

[Jessica]

The important thing is to not use the same comination of 2 dogs if the 2 together give a bad litter or some puppies in the litter was born with defects.

You won´t pull the breed forward by killing offsprings and still use the parents in breeding. By doing this you will not eliminate the problems. Only prevent people to know that the parents has produced puppies with defects...because we will never know how many puppies got killed and what the defects was.

Anyway, no dog is perfect, so why kill healthy puppies? It is a totaly different thing if the puppies are not able to have a normal life.

[Joe]

    

As stated by some one else,  you can just sell the pups that are not top notch prospects cheaper as pet quality pups with a spay or nueter contract so they can't reproduce.

 Alot of owners want the dog because of the temperment and working ability, not just showing.

[Karina]

   


 Alot of owners want the dog because of the temperment and working ability, not just showing.

 Thanks for these wise words

[ronjhoser]

I think those that are questioning the situation with the parents and littermates of the pups in question are on to something here.  It sounds to me like you are one step away from saying that the Cane Corso race should be exterminated if they cannot produce pups with correct tails and only very minimal white marking.  This seems outrageous,  but I will go in a different direction...

I propose this solution:
Why not raise these pups to the age when they can be safely spayed / nuetered and sell them for half the money, in order to cover the expenses??

This is easier in the States, because we can have limited registration and it is usually possible to enforce contracts.  I can see that this situation is very different in Europe, but I can't justify killing a pup that will otherwise have a good quality of life.  This pup could bring great joy to someone's life that possibly could not afford to buy a "perfect" dog.

In my opinion, producing great pups is work and finding great homes is a responsibility... perhaps more work than creating pups in the first place.  I think that if you are not prepared to do both, you should either not breed at all or plan to keep every pup that you produce, forever.

[canecorsonancy]

You can limit registration here too. I can sell a pup with limited registration by requesting to the kennelclub that this pup is not to be used for breeding. Only the person that limited the registration (the original breeder) can later change it back to a full registration.
You can spay and neuter at an early age. But we can not look into the future. We are already severly limiting the genepool from this breed. Breeding for the best looks only. Breeding the best hips only. 1 Known problem pup in a litter and breeders are under severe attack if they dare to use a littermate or a parent again. When we do run into severe problems due to that too limited genepool the spayed and neutered dogs can not help us any more. The dead pup even less
I agree with you that as a breeder you are responsible for all pups you produce and have to find homes for all of them. Killing a pup for not being healthy and having no way of having a good normal life, that I can live with. But killing a pup for having some white (too much for 1 breeder does not have to be too much for the next) or other no life theatening things....... That is severly limiting the genepool of this breed and only harming the breed. For now this pup might look like it can not contribute anything good to the population. But having seen ugly pups turning into real beauties. Having seen white on pups become a lot less when the pups grow up. These pups would not have a chance with a spay/neuter contract or when killed. And think what all the severly limiting of our genepool is already doing to our breed...... We will run into a lot more problems if we continue like this. Then you could only wish you had not spayed and neutered the dogs with those so valuable good genes the breed needs than. Let alone kill them........
Check out http://www.canecorsoforum.info/index.php?topic=1438.msg16409#msg16409 where I tried to explain myself in a bit more detail.

Besides the genepool, I also would like to see an entire litter when I buy a pup. We often have seen 1 beautiful pup from a litter filled with ugly ducks, not producing the best quality (this is not always the case, but it is often). And average quality pups from above average litters, produce much better. By killing the less good pups, not only is that an easy way to not have to go through the trouble of finding such a pup a good home, it is also a way of pretending that the entire litter was of good quality and that does show a very wrong image of that litter and the expected quality those pups will produce later on.

[BlueMoonCorsoDogs]

In my opinion, producing great pups is work and finding great homes is a responsibility... perhaps more work than creating pups in the first place.  I think that if you are not prepared to do both, you should either not breed at all or plan to keep every pup that you produce, forever.

Im a bit late to this but I had to comment...well said ron i couldnt have said it better myself if i tried.

killing dogs for small defects is whole 101% wrong and should be punishable. In my opinion...but everyone has one of those dont we.

[dr octagon]

But if you have one litter of puppys and some have to much white, then it doesnt mean, that the puppys without the white, is still carring the white colorgeen. colors and fysikal defekts are 2 different things.

in the nature, most animalt who gets to much white(in a spicie that is not suppose to be white), will often be killed by its own kind, or the mother wont nurce it.

Old thread, but I can't help miself.

This just shows how frikkin' ignorant you are.
Since when did dogbreedeing become "the natures way" It has never been. Humans have always made the selections.

And how can you really think that a colour affect the working/pet abilities in a dog?
Look at the breed when it was called Cane E Presa (99.9% working dogs back then), there where alot more variations in colors and type before the FCI had it's veto.
Not saying it was better in the good old days. Well i maybe where b'cos you werent around.

Get real woman!

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

In  beglium there  is the possibility to become an 'elitebreeder'.  These breeders has to follow certain rules. One of the rules is to take care that litters don't get bigger than about 8 puppies. This is a rule of the kennelclub of Belgium. The breedclubs has to inform  there members about the concequenses of big litters for the health of the puppies and the mother.

How will a breeder take care for litters not bigger than 8 puppies? I know in the past there were more of this kinds of rules. LIke it used to be done by the great dane in Holland.

Maybe it's worth thinking about this why these rules are? I am not saying I like this rule, but there is something true, not so big litters are good for mom and the puppies

[/quote

There was not talking about size of the litter, there was talking about killing a puppy for looks, that puppy may just as well come from a litter with 3-8 puppys. So It was not a talk about the mothers health. 

I dont belive in killing a puppy just because it got a litle to much white, that puppy is able to be a loved family dog. 

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

In  beglium there  is the possibility to become an 'elitebreeder'.  These breeders has to follow certain rules. One of the rules is to take care that litters don't get bigger than about 8 puppies. This is a rule of the kennelclub of Belgium. The breedclubs has to inform  there members about the concequenses of big litters for the health of the puppies and the mother.

How will a breeder take care for litters not bigger than 8 puppies? I know in the past there were more of this kinds of rules. LIke it used to be done by the great dane in Holland.

Maybe it's worth thinking about this why these rules are? I am not saying I like this rule, but there is something true, not so big litters are good for mom and the puppies

[/quote

There was not talking about size of the litter, there was talking about killing a puppy for looks, that puppy may just as well come from a litter with 3-8 puppys. So It was not a talk about the mothers health. 

I dont belive in killing a puppy just because it got a litle to much white, that puppy is able to be a loved family dog. 

Nope I know, but there was something about killing puppies for what for reasons. What would you choose if you were in Belgium and had a litter of 10 puppies (really normal for CC), which puppies would you kill?

Uh I am happy I am not getting in a situration like that, I dont find it natural to kill a healty puppy. 

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

In  beglium there  is the possibility to become an 'elitebreeder'.  These breeders has to follow certain rules. One of the rules is to take care that litters don't get bigger than about 8 puppies. This is a rule of the kennelclub of Belgium. The breedclubs has to inform  there members about the concequenses of big litters for the health of the puppies and the mother.

How will a breeder take care for litters not bigger than 8 puppies? I know in the past there were more of this kinds of rules. LIke it used to be done by the great dane in Holland.

Maybe it's worth thinking about this why these rules are? I am not saying I like this rule, but there is something true, not so big litters are good for mom and the puppies

There is something called natural selection, in lot of litters its normal, where there is puppy / puppys there dies with in first 24 ouers and more days.

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

yes I am a new breeder regarding cane corso, but I have 27 years of experience as a breeder of other breeds. And I have brought up, many champions in my time.

I think (and this is afcouse just my oppionin), that as a breeder, we/I have a big responsibility bringing up correct cane corso. Especially because our breed was cloose to die out. If I get puppys here, with serious disqualifing faults, I will bring them to the vet. familiy pets or not.The only one that decision hurts, is me. I am the one, that to go to the vet, with pain in my heart.It is no fun to a thing like this. The puppys dont feel a thing.I am a breeder, because I want to contribute to the breed, with the best I can.

I am not bringing puppys into the world, just to make puppys.. In some countrys the standart is a skandal, and that is because people let everything live, and even breed on the dogs, that have serious faults.there is puppys enough in this world that need a good home. No reason to make more of them. go to a lokal animal shelter, and take a look around. if people wants a familypet, i suggest they go there..

If you want to build up the breed, you cant have dogs that have white all over, or pigtails or anything else like that. because people start to breed them, no matter what they look like. And then the breed dont have a serious future, after my oppinion.

I could have startet to breed years ago on my female, like a lot of people do. They get a dog, and as soon as it is old enough, they start to make puppys. Some people dont even travel to find a good male, they just use what comes in handy, in there own country.

I spended time to get my female winning so many prices in different countrys, before I even concidered making any puppys. I have been trying to gather as mush information as possible from the old corso breeders, and i spended so many hours, studing the different lines look. Because there is many bad cane corso, not looking correct, and I wanted to be sure about what I did. I wanted to make strong dogs, brave like lions, with big bones and beautifull heads. Not boxerfaces, not small dogs with bones like a labrador. And dogs with a great karakter and stong personality.This took time to do, and this year I finally found that I was ready.

Look at my puppys. I did do a good job. hardly no white markings, just a little on the cheast or on the cheak, if any at all. Strong heads, short noses and super strong bones.afcouse not all of Stasias puppys have perfect head, because of there mother, but if they gets her absolutly wonderfol moovements, topline,cheats, her perfect angulations and her exceptional caracter, I still did a good job. This litter is the first generation, in my own line of dogs. I know my dogs forces and faults, and im working on making the not perfect things, better.

I know, that a lot of people get upset by my way of doing this. But in my eyes, this is what seperate a serious breeder from an amathour. Bash me for my oppinion if you like, but this is the way, I feel about breeding dogs, and I think you should respect that. Being a breeder is not just about making  puppys. It is to contribute to the breed, with the best you can...

You say you are a experience breeder and jet you had a litter with a female Cane Corso and a mixed dog breed, you didnt kill any of theme. ? I dont get it?

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

That's true, but what if there are still more than 8 alive? I couldn't do it, but still I noticed in very big litters the puppies are smaller and it takes a lot more from the mother. And giving the puppies xtra milk isn't natural neither

may be its not natural to give the puppys milk, but if the female have 10 breast filled with milk its not nesesary.
Every situration is difence.

[Aurora Nel Cielo]

That's true, but what if there are still more than 8 alive? I couldn't do it, but still I noticed in very big litters the puppies are smaller and it takes a lot more from the mother. And giving the puppies xtra milk isn't natural neither

may be its not natural to give the puppys milk, but if the female have 10 breast filled with milk its not nesesary.
Every situration is difence.

I know, I only was talking about this rule in Belgium were 'top'fokkers has to be care that litters won't be bigger than 8 puppies. I wonder how that's possible.


Yes I understand, I wouth call it human desided darwinisme the strongest would survive, but humans are not fit to make that desision, even if they make genetik test on each puppy, they can not be sure abouth temperement and looks for a show dog when it become adult.